I first came into contact with Benjamin years ago... probably around the early 2000's in Orléans. I think I first met him very briefly during the recording of the Burning Heads album "Opposite". Ben was then in charge of the artwork of the album and he also wrote a song on it, Tic Tac Toe. I was taking pictures of the recording of the album, so I was invisible, I don't think Ben even saw me back then. He was already a very talented and famous artist in our local punk scene. I had heard of him, of his work, of his ideas... and I knew he was living with his partners in crime (Cellule0038753K) just across the road from me.
I remember bumping into him in our local organic shop once, here he was, looking like a Zen practitoner. It was a very simple look - shaved head, but the peaceful smile on the lips was betrayed by a very, very intense stare that told me a lot about his inner tortures. I could read that he had been in the dark side and he had come back, but changed for ever. His eyes swept the room, he looked at me, smiled politely and then paid for his bag of organic whole grain rice and left, floating out of the shop, with a lot of fluidity in his movement. Moving on to a new scenery to surround him and his activities.
Then a few years later, still in Orléans, I was pasting graphic Animal Rights posters in the streets, "inviting" people to go vegetarian. This time he saw me. He was watching me while enjoying a cup of coffee at the sunny terrasse of a famous local cafe, with this very peaceful smile of his, and his eyes were smiling too. I could see in his eyes that he was pleased. I think my activity may have revived a sparkle that he had in him... that sparkle that every activist has inside them... sometimes it can be dormant until something or someone revives it, like a gas lighter.
I sat down with him and we had a chat about a few -isms: Vegetarianism, Activism, Buddhism... before I went back to my activities, with my posters.
We kept bumping into each other in the street, and he'd tell me all about his fascinating works in progress, his pilgrimages to waterfalls in Switzerland, his landart projects, his videos... as a photographer I always found Ben to be very inspiring company. I always wanted to be able to have a look inside geniuses' brains - to be able to see how they work, to watch their creative process in action... Ben is one of them. He is the kind of person that inspires you and makes you become very creative just by having a chat with him. I'd tell him about what I was up to, and he'd bring into the light aspects unthought of before, well by me anyway :)
So I've always kept an eye on his work, because a) He's extremly talented and creative b) He's one of the few real artist activists that has got the humility to stay himself without getting lost in the Contemporary Art Hype too much...
A few years ago, I was a Campaign coordinator for PETA Europe and I was organising a demo in Paris, near the Canadian Ambassy to protest against the Barbaric Seal Hunt. I was organising a street performance, a re-enactment of the seal slaughter, with a papier mache baby seal (containing pockets of fake blood) being bashed by a seal hunter. I needed someone brave enough to dress up as a seal hunter who wouldn't mind dressing up with a fake beard, some waterproofs, wellies and who could play a nasty barabaric character. I called him up, he agreed and next thing we were meeting up on a sunny terrasse in a Parisian cafe, like in the old days and he did a great job and literally rocked the demo :)
For the last few years we have been keeping in touch over emails, sharing our thoughts, doubts, and updates.
This interview is a glimpse inside Ben's brain, it's only a snapshot though, his brain his much more complex than that :)
Art Practices, Martial Arts, Contemporary dance, Meditation and
more :
Noemie: Can you tell me a bit more about the workshop you did with Joseph
Nadj ? Why did you start learning and practicing contemporary dance during
this period of time? Were you still involved in other artistic research or was
dance was the only way of expressing yourself at this particular moment of your
career?
Benjamin: I was actually quite involved in Aïkido during this period of
time, and I was surrounded by actors as well as stage and film directors. These
were all people who "work with their bodies", and I was more involved in
sculpture research. Sculpture had become a sort of desperate artistic field in
the 2000's because everything has already been done, and even if it might sound
untrue, I've never really been skilled with my hands...
So the point was to understand how to perceive Body and Space (I'll talk
about this later). And there is something in the work of Joseph Nadj that calls
to me. There was some sort of "shared vocabulary", perhaps because of common
influences. What I mean is that there is something special in Joseph Nadj" (Or
"was" back in the days when I enrolled on this one year workshop), something
that's linked to Marcel Duchamp as I pictured him: a westerner and Zen master,
chess player, who saw art in everything. Nadj is obviously a big name in the
Art scene, but there is this thread with Duchamps, maybe even Andrée Breton,
etc... He is some sort of pre mass-media figure in the way that... well, when you
see one of his performances or show's - it's mastered from the beginning to the
end, the "stuff" is here, it's brutal and witty, smart and extremely "alive".
It's a "play", a "show", a "performance" - but it's real!
There is a connection between his work and mine... it may sound extremely
pretentious to say it as simply as this... But that's the simple way I try to
meet other people and/or their work. In a workshop, an interview or an
exhibition, or even in front of a painting, I try to be more open and as simple
as I can be. That's always a discussion, an exchange. That's something I learnt
from Michel Besnard, my first Aikido "teacher". I do actually prefer the title
"senseï" rather than teacher. It's not some exotic Buddhist or Japanese hype,
but moreso because the meaning of the word is much clearer and more concise in
regards to what a martial art "senseï" actually is/does/represents....). He was
actually a 6th Dan which is quite a big deal, but he was very simple in his
teachings and his way of being - his way of conducting himself. Anyway, when
two people meet, it's really just two universes that meet, be it Joseph Nadj,
my brother or the guy from the grocery store...
For contemporary dance - well, I was lucky enough to be a neighbour of the
National Choreographic Center in Orléans, in the way that I was on the same
block. I lived 3 minutes away from the rehearsal room which did help my
attendance a lot. It wasn't as if I had to travel 30 minutes to get to the
appointment, and on the way my mind would have the time to question why I was
going there. That would require a certain degree of effort in order to stay
focused. Here it was much more direct and such a beautiful experience to be a
part of all these workshops, with people coming from all around the globe to
practice and learn. I had both the pleasure of learning coupled with a kind of
detachment, because I never felt like being into the "rat race" of the hardcore
combat training that's necessary to become a contemporary professional Dancer.
I just happened to be living next door.
N: It seems that in everything you do, you always emphasize a relationship
to space. Does this sound correct to you? Is it a part of a particular artistic
concept, and are you aware of it?
B: Yes a lot, and for several reasons. I did a few workshops with Moeno
Wakamatsu, a buto dancer and choreographer - I also followed her during a video
documentary and I also assisted her during performances or workshops. She
developed this idea of "time sculptor", but for her it's really about sculpting
the space time continuum... (I mentioned this to her during her workshop and she
agreed with me, that the concept of time is not separated from the concept of
space) The hardest thing with creativity is to give yourself the time and space
to be creative. Some may say it's a mindset, but I do believe that it really is
a space. I think it's pretty much a genetic necessity with me, in the way that
if I don't allow my creativity and imagination surplus to flow outwards,
towards the external surface of my body (it might sound crazy, I know) I'm at
risk of being over taken by this imagination, so I sit! I stay seated! As a
Rinzaï Master may say!
Space also implies all these notions of emptiness and fullness - the
interactions between different elements (that you will also find in the
composition on the canvas of a painting or in the composition of a
photograph)
It's what I think is called Tathagata in Buddhism, I can't remember if I
heard this from Gary Snyder or somewhere else, but in a way that's the child's
fingers that tap tap, tap, tap, tap, tap on the edge of the table! It's the
physical reality of objects - I'm not sure if that's what we can call
space....
But that's the place where action is NOT metaphorical. Of course I'm aware
of it in the sense that a big part of my research is to be conscious or even
unconscious - I mean in the here and now.
N: Which of your artistic projects do you consider to be the more
accomplished?
B: The skewered Seitan satay sauce of last night was alright... there are a
couple of my very minimalist sculptures that I really like... but the question is
more - what exactly is "accomplished"? I'm rather in progress. I'm going to quote a classic of the
eastern literature - Sun Tzu in "The Art of War", even though I'm more inclined
to The art of peace with Ueshiba, but I'll clarify later:
(It's extracted from the article: "Empty and Full"...)
"Therefore, when I have won a victory I do not repeat my tactics but respond
to circumstances in an infinite variety of ways."
Beyond the notion of victory that leaves me a bit perplexed, I see in that
sentence the functioning of Nature itself, and I do really believe that
creativity is an organic process that never stops but always finds an infinity
of possibilities, like these trees that grow in urban areas and whose roots
crack the asphalt...
N: Do you think that you have ever come close to the visions you had of a
piece before materializing it?
B: Yes - with the installation work E/Outopia, with land art installations,
with some of my sculptures and with some of my poems as well. I see them as if
they were already written on the page, as if in another universe, and that I'm
only transcribing them. This doesn't happen to me every week unfortunately.
N: During a creative process, do you feel the need to be isolated or do you
enjoy being around people?
B: It varies, the alchemy of working with people is quite rare, well... I have
seldom found it... That's the big job though, and the not-so-enjoyable part of
the research, but I'm not really into social pleasantries, I must admit.
N: Do you need to recreate some kind of confinement, like a cocoon so that
you can immerse yourself in the creative process, or are you at ease in any
situation? For example - having to create a piece in situ?
B: This also varies greatly! I had that kind of experience once, I realized
a sculpture in the Thalys Amsterdam/Paris, so literally amongst a lot of
people... It's far from street art, street performances or those kind of
experiences that do impress me a lot, or things like graffiti that I have a
huge respect for. When I do an action in the street, it really is a performance
in every aspects because it is mentally very difficult for me. I mean it's a
performance for myself, and I feel utterly desperate when I think about how
much easier it used to be for me when I was younger... mmm... and so it was very
strange to create this sculpture on this train, I had made myself some sort of
portable micro-work table and so there was two instances at once: a cocoon, and
the reality of the surrounding cognitive spheres...
N: Is your practice of martial arts an extension of dance in some way, or is
it completely separate for you?
B: The two feed each other. A lot of dances have martial origins and in a
way all art is Art of War and sublimation of the warrior instinct, or murder in
an aesthetic way. In a sense "Art" or "the Arts" have something that elevate
human beings, well that's my vision of it. Having said that, most of dances
(apart from ballroom dances) are full of movement that you could apply in a
martial sense - well I mean the practice in general. For my own practice, I
started (well really badly, but I won't tell you this here) with the practice
of judo, then kendo, then I moved to aikido and in the mean time I had the
chance to practice different styles of aikido, kung fu, Iaïdo, Penchak Silat,
Brasilian Jujitsu but most of all Kyudo. I really enjoyed that, even if it's a
rather different martial art because it's the path of Japanese archery which is
not a contact sport or either combat, but which really is a warrior
practice.
N: Do you live your art in your everyday life, I mean do you dedicate all
your time to it on a regular basis or do you set it aside for a while and
immerse yourself in it periodically?
B: Well, I'd say 95% up to 99% of my time. In fact I juggle in between
different practices and different projects on long and short term, it's both
exhausting and reassuring, that's my practice. It's also a way to sustain it in
the long run, in the way that I don't live through my art all the time. The
martial practice taught me that all practice - even all work - can be enriching
for my personal practice. It's more the question of the intensity of focus on
one subject or another that varies according to the days/weeks.
N: What does technology bring you? If you were in another Time or in a
country where you didn't have access to computers for example, do you think you
would thrive just as much?
B: Yes of course - probably much more, in the way that I created a lot of
digital art and video mixes in collectives in the 90's - 2000's, and now I do a
lot of sculptures with wood, metal or random objects found in the street.
That's the meaning of the practice I have studied (yes, yes... I have studied)
gravure printing with Yves Carreau for five years. It's quite a tough
discipline because it involves inverted drawing on a metal sheet which you then
manipulate with acids and use ink to get a print... To be very honest with you I
don't consider myself either graveur or dancer, but it seems obvious to me that
what I have learned in this workshop is a way of thinking and an approach to
working. I thrive just as much while cooking, even moreso because the visual
aspect is added to the smell and taste and you don't need a computer to do
that!
N: Do you feel more at ease when you have constraints? Such as being able to
use only one media?
B: That's a very good question, it's ambivalent. The interest of a
pluridisciplinary work to me is to go from one aspect to another while keeping
the right breath. In my opinion it's a great way to optimize your time while
living naturally within a constraint. I say "constraint" because an artistic
practice that is driven to such a degree of intensity tends to become a
constraint by default in my opinion. Regarding the use of a single media, I
never had that kind of request, but I think it's an exciting idea.
N: what do you think of Mindful Movements as an art form? You know, like in
calligraphy, where every brush movement is mindful, unique and carefully
thought... What part does reflection play in the work you do? Are you more of an
intuitive person or do you find yourself deliberating a lot during a creative
process?
B: Again it does vary a lot. I try to stretch a natural tendancy that leads
me to be very (very, very) thoughtful over a long period of time and then be
essentially intuitive all of a sudden. On the other hand, I have very carefully
planned strategies to keep my instinct. I have practiced iaodo a while ago,
which is the Japanese art of sword (well, it's a path...) with this work on
repeating the same movement until you attain a fluidity that is beyond the
mechanical or conditioned reflex. This is in a way our human/animal instinct,
but for me it's my practice in a broader sense - art in daily life. I think
that my instinct is fundamentally too hardcore to live in society, so I do
think a lot.
N: Do you have a very precise vision of a piece before materializing it?
B: Sometimes I do, sometimes it creates itself in the movement, in the
moment. Well some pieces are also very complicated to set up... let say that for
an interactive installation it's judicious to have a very precise vision of it
before you create it... and that takes time. For the rest I have sculptures that
have pretty much built themselves before my eyes, in a few minutes, with my
hands that were working by themselves... it's very surprising and sometimes quite
hard to channel.
N: Are you planning to do some Land Art again? What did you learn from this
experience? B: I do very much hope that I'll do some Land Art again, I love it,
working outdoors is something quite rare for me. I really enjoy it, I have
learned lessons on how to catch space with very little resources, precisely...
and also you have to apprehend the whole thing with humility and modesty. I
have a HUGE admiration for the work of Andy Goldsworthy, also the work of
Richard Long who transforms walking into an art form... but Goldsworthy has a
work that does resonate inside me (I highly recommend the documentary Rivers
and Tides with music by Fred Frith). I also very much love the hugely beautiful
masterpiece of Guiseppe Penone who is a member of l'Arte Povera but who has a
strong connection with Nature. Regarding the work on E/Outopia, I was very
pleased to learn that a lot of people from the neighbouring suburb, La Source,
near Orleans had enjoyed the project which was very simple but completely
changed the landscape. Obviously I'd love to create Land Art in a more..mmm...
natural environment, but it's a matter of occasion, and the occasion hasn't
arisen yet.
N: Is the ephemeral nature of a piece (like in Land Art or in a sand
mandala) something that appeals to you or do you dislike it?
B: One of my favourite sculptures no longer exists, there is no trace of it,
not even a photograph, it's a sculpture made from different pieces of paper and
carboard, bags, notebooks, etc...It instinctively landed in my flat at least
fifteen years ago. A pure ephemeral and instinctive form - I truly consider
this as Art in the highest sense. I've never done a sand mandala but I'd really
enjoy it I think. On the same subject it's quite unknown and strange - the
Navajo Indians and Tibetans share linguistic forms and the practice of drawing
with sand!
N: Do you still make your notebooks?
B: Yes I just made a small series, I'll set one aside for you, and I might
sell some on my website.
N: What part does music play in your creativity? Does music or the absence
of it have an influence on you?
B: Huge! Music and silence... or the sound of sound, surrounding sounds are
extremely important for me.... For production and editing in video it's obvious
that music, sound - as we are in the AUDIO-visual - plays a big part.. you just
have to do a 2 minute edit and then change the music, and the perception of
time will vary! I'm very interested in anthropology, and trance phenomenon
interests me too. Music has an important part in it. I still play the bass
regularly. Obviously you'll find rhythm in both music and dance, but also in
the way you sculpt. This way you don't exhaust yourself and can stay creative
and light with a metal grinder or a welder, and of course punk rock and the
hardcore straight edge, things like that (...) Big heavy sounds that wake me up
when I'm falling asleep.
N: Do you think that each artist should be committed and active at his/her
level? I mean delivering a social or political message?
B: They should yes! I don't think it's necessary in order to be an artist,
not even a good artist, even if this notion of good artist is more and more
blurry for me. Martial arts are a great school for that, in a way that in a
moldy dojo you can meet extraordinary technicians with great humility and who
are completely unknown. These characters can reveal themselves to have GREAT
subtlety (I'm not talking about some kind of blatant or heavy-handed person
that will give you a forceful demonstration, but real subtlety..) The same can
be said of punk rock, where you find extraordinary musicians who are relatively
unknown... So what exactly is a good artist? Well, we don't really give a shit,
but regarding the commitment, as it's said: The Liberty of expression wears out
only if we don't use it! I do like Fudo Myoo, a Japanese Buddhist divinity,
slightly angry, because.... Well "C'est la merde!" as Keny Arkana says. All these
injustices and the absurdity of the system, inequalities, this shameless
destruction of Nature... I think we have to be an activist at our own level as
much as we can We must discover who we are but also see the world and act upon
it, just as in our food choices and the choices we make as consumers. I'd
rather be a drop of organic oil in the relationship with my friends and a grain
of sand in the gears of a inhumane machine. And in art, may it be contemporary
art or in modern art, because I'm a real amateur of modern art - a notion
that's quite shared is Freedom.
N: It seems that you are so creative that you use all the possible and
imaginable media to express yourself... writing, montages, graphic design, video,
photography, dance, martial arts, cooking, sculpture, installations... how do you
chose the most appropriate means of expression for each piece?
B: Things usually take care of themselves, quite naturally. I don't know how
to say it differently. That doesn't mean that I don't think them through, but
they just make themselves naturally.
N: It seems that you have developed an interest for Japan and Asia in
general, is it an influence? What form does it take?
B: Well I'm naturally attracted by the Japanese Zen, I don't speak Japanese
(yet?), but I know a few philosophical or technical terms related to martial
arts and Buddhism, because... well things have unfolded this way in my life... as
simply as this... and yes it has an influence at very different levels. As a very
simple example, I'll mention my brother who has been playing basketball since
he was very little and he ended up in NYC, and straight away he went bouncing
the orange ball with the guys from the block... Well I haven't been traveling all
that much, but abroad it's simple. In an Aikido dojo, how to say it? I have
learnt and have had transmitted to me a way of introducing myself which means
that I always feel at home fairly quickly - at ease to practice, whether it's
Chi Qong, Aikido, or whatever. That's for the martial side of things. Honestly
if I get to a football ground I don't even stop, I keep walking and I'll do my
little Taoist gymnastic. In design and during the manufacturing process of
objects in a broader sense, I'm very sensitive to a Japanese approach of things
but you could find it in, mmm Dutch handicraft for example or certain Bauhaus
creations. Some sort of simplicity, raw and extremely beautiful. In eastern art
- beyond modern art - I like roman art, which is very stripped down... Visually
it is a library of shapes inside my brain, but I remain very much a westerner
and very interested in Native Americans! I think that one of the duties of
humankind should be to preserve indigenous cultures, may they be the Aïnu in
Japan, the Tibetans or the Navajo (and other indigenous people) in the US. But
well, I'm very sensitive to Japanese Zen... that's a fact, I can't help it :)
N: Have you chosen to be a Parisian out of love for the city or out of
convenience?
B: Mmm.... A series of interwoven facts brought me here. It's a beautiful city
though.
N: Are your photographs polaroids?
B: Yes
N: All of them?
B: No, I have also done some series with disposable cameras and one series
of panoramic 360 in Laponia, with a digital camera.
N: Your photographs look like Japanese haikus, they are truly moving because
of their natural simplicity and their aesthetic... what part does photography
play in your work?
B: it's my most personal practice, I have never done any exhibition or books
or presented my photographic research or practice to anyone. For me photography
is a base layer of my work, in a way that:
The resources required for photography are quite economical compared to the
resources that are required for a video/film production. I only need my camera,
a film, and my feet (and my eyes...) no need for a cameraman to whom I would ask
to say :"aaa" or :"aa" It's a practice, which means there is a ritual in the
use of the camera... The way you load the film, open the camera, slightly bend
the knees to centre, focus, press and breath... The very little resources
required allow me to practice it even when I'm working on something else. If
I'm working on a video production or on a sculpture, this practice of
photography will bring me back to that place of practice, it's very relaxing
indeed. It requires me to have complete awareness of myself. I don't work in
digital, so each picture is important. I won't take another one if the picture
isn't good.
It's like a sword or a sniper I suppose, but instead we immerse in the
sublime beauty of the present/immemorial moment. It's centring like in video -
it tells you a story as in a short story. It will move like a poem and at the
very moment when I'm creating it I'm at the maximum of my own sensitivity and
instinctive opening... nearly in trance, because like in classic painting of
landscapes, there is a fusion between the object being observed and the
observer.
N: You seem to enjoy working with images in all forms (video, photography,
3D...) is that correct?
B: Yes, I even enjoyed creating some improvised music.
N: What's your favourite dish?
B: The one I'll cook tonight, I don't know what is it yet...
Visit Benjamin Pothier's website for more info and updates about his work.
